[00:00:00] Vesna: Burnout is everywhere in corporate settings, and so is the advice. Mindfulness apps, resilience workshops, gym, yogurt, lunchtime, and taking a break yet burnout rates continue to climb. Today we wanna have an honest conversation about why this great advice is not making a difference. what we see over and over again is that burnout isn't a work or environment issue.
[00:00:19] It is an internal capacity issue. In today's episode, we're gonna share after working with over 10,000 women, helping them through burnout, what actually works?
[00:00:30] Welcome to the Pick Revival podcast. My name is Vesna and I'm joined today by Melissa, our coach, and we are gonna talk about why taking a break does not fix burnout.
[00:00:40] And then what does? Melissa works as a coach in my programs, on the calls and in the groups, and so she's very well versed. In all of my work, my method and understanding burnout, energy, mood, metabolic health.
[00:00:53] So welcome Melissa.
[00:00:54] Melissa: Hi, sna. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
[00:00:58] Vesna: so when we were designing [00:01:00] this episode, we thought, you know what would be really cool is to talk about. The advice that is given in a corporate setting or a work setting about burnout. And there's just so much advice out there and none of it really moves the needle. And Melissa has a corporate background.
[00:01:15] She's worked in HR and she has seen some of this advice. And you know, when we were chatting you talked about, you know, what was some of the advice given, which was, you know, the things that I mentioned, like yoga, gym memberships, which is all great. What were the other things that you've. Heard in the corporate setting for burnout advice.
[00:01:31] Melissa: the majority of advice that's given these days is about. How do we control our external environment? How can we fix things within the corporate setting that can help the individual? Tackle fatigue, tackle brain fog, tackle all of these things that come along with burnout. And as you mentioned, oftentimes that is okay, you need to work out, you need to go to the gym, you need to do some breath work.
[00:01:55] Maybe even having a little bit more paid time off, looking at different [00:02:00] strategies to. Give the clients or give the employees a little bit more space to be able to tackle these things. However, as you mentioned this corporate burnout advice, while it sounds good doesn't actually work long term because it does very little to address the internal capacity that people. that's what really people are struggling with. So, you know, you can't meditate your way out of, uh, physiological depletion, which is what we look at a lot in the Bye-bye burnout program is how can we rebuild those physiological stocks so that we're able to have the capacity to be able to get through a day at work?
[00:02:39] Vesna: So yeah, definitely that stuff is about controlling the environment and that's certainly the stuff that I see and I hear is that people have tried all of those things and it's kind of like, you know, I just did a podcast before and I talked about how, you know, it's kind of addressing stress after the fact.
[00:02:54] And so the example I used was that, you know, if I have a headache. Then my solution is to take [00:03:00] a paracetamol and then every time I get a headache, I take a paracetamol and then I take a paracetamol every day. Is that really the solution to address it after the fact? Or is it better that I address the root cause of my headache? And so that's the way that I see stress and that's the way we deal with it in the programs. But, and I wanted to have more of a conversation around this because it is about capacity, it is about bandwidth, you know, so it's all great to try and have a. Yeah, better communication. But when you're really depleted, it's really hard to have a nice conversation or productive one.
[00:03:30] And boundaries. It's hard to have boundaries Also, when you are really depleted and you're really unclear, you don't have that mental clarity. So you're kind of saying yes to things, no, to things. I dunno what I should be doing. I, you know, and then we look at work culture and those communications. Again, it's trying to fix the outside to resolve an internal problem.
[00:03:50] And things that I like to focus on is, well, how can you thrive in any situation regardless of what's happening in that environment? Because you know, you will notice some [00:04:00] people in a corporate setting or in a work setting, some are stressed and some take it all on board and they take it home with them and they talk about it to their family, to their partner, with their friends, you know, and some just.
[00:04:12] Ride with it, right? They're just totally fine with it, you know, it just kind of flies off their back and they don't take it home with them and they're able to deal with it. So what is the difference there? And to me, the difference there is that capacity or that bandwidth to be able to handle and not only just handle, it's like it doesn't actually trigger you.
[00:04:31] It doesn't affect you so much because your nervous system is. You know, more regulated. Your body is in a, in a better physical state to be able to handle stress.
[00:04:43] Melissa: So in your experience and especially your experience with burnout, Why is it that two people can sit at the same desk with the same workload, yet have completely different experiences? What is going on in the internal environment between those two different individuals that create such a [00:05:00] different experience?
[00:05:01] Vesna: Yeah, so you know, someone could sit down at their desk and they've got 500 emails and be like, oh my gosh, I can't stand this anymore. I'm so over this. Every day there's 500 emails. Oh my gosh, I'm so over it, blah, blah. And it becomes such a drain. Whereas somebody else could sit down and see 500 emails and have nothing on it and be like, this is just a normal workday, right?
[00:05:21] This is just work, right? This is what it is. And the difference is, is that mental bandwidth, so. When you have more mental bandwidth, you have more capacity to handle whatever's on your plate, and so When you have pressure or you're in, I guess, high stress environments, your mental bandwidth and emotional bandwidth matters even more the person that doesn't have the bandwidth for that will often find that it bleeds into other areas of their work or their life. You know, maybe they, you know, women that come home, they've got, you know, responsibilities at work and then they come home and then they have responsibilities at home.
[00:05:55] Being a mother, you know, having a family. And so that can bleed into [00:06:00] all of those areas where you have less tolerance, you have less patience, you're snapping really easily, and you just kind of wanna. Lock yourself up and hide yourself away because it's all too much, right? It's not an uncommon thing that we hear.
[00:06:12] And that's just a really lack of bandwidth. And I think when you understand that, that's the real. Problem here, it's much more empowering because obviously you can fix
[00:06:22] that rather than, well, I can't leave my job because I need this job. Or, it's a great career, it's a great company, but I just wish I didn't have a boss like this. Or I didn't come into 500 emails, or I didn't have this, or I didn't have that.
[00:06:34] Right? So instead of having to change the environment, you can change your internal world or internal bandwidth, which makes all of that much easier.
[00:06:45] Melissa: what is going on physiologically within somebody when they're in a low bandwidth state versus when they're in maybe a higher bandwidth state?
[00:06:51] Vesna: Yeah, so when you're in low bandwidth, what's gonna happen is you don't recognize that you have low bandwidth, which is what we see, right? All the time. Women don't recognize that they have low [00:07:00] bandwidth and like really frustrated. I've gotta get this done. Everything feels urgent. There's so much pressure, there's so much stress, they, there's more frustration because they can't get it done.
[00:07:08] But that just creates so much stress hormones in the body, and that has like this downstream effect. So it changes your stress hormones, changes your blood glucose levels, affects your insulin levels. So how you are managing energy, how your body's burning fat. It has a physiological response that makes everything harder. And then really, we just have such. Reduce cognitive function and we are not in that, you know, front brain and we don't have access to our intelligence and the decision makings and we're not rational, like we actually dumb down in that state.
[00:07:43] So if people could understand that when they're in that low state, like the most important thing is to get out of that low state rather than frustration and, you know, creating more pressure and urgency. 'cause it's very hard to, to really. Move the [00:08:00] needle in that state, you know, I will often say the loan band low bandwidth days, you don't really get that much done, but you're busy, like your wheels are spinning.
[00:08:08] The high bandwidth days, you really get a lot done, but it feels almost effortless, right? So when you compare those two days, the high bandwidth, you're really getting a lot more done without the stress. And the overwhelm. And obviously then on a physiological level, your body's in a completely different state, right?
[00:08:26] You've got more hormones that help to relax you and to stimulate the metabolism and increase energy production. So whatever you are working on is actually just generating more energy for you. So by the end of the day, you feel on a high rather than a low. So that's, that's the real difference between high and low.
[00:08:43] So obviously we wanna, we wanna get to the high bandwidth, which is possible for every single person. And then, you know, what we tend to find is that as someone is operating at a high stress state for so long, the bandwidth is just reducing overtime until they get to this point where it's so low, they don't even recognize themselves, [00:09:00] right?
[00:09:00] They're like, oh, I can't handle anything anymore. Like, oh, this is all too much for me. You know, I see business owners that are like, I just don't think I can do this business anymore, and that's not true. That with where they're at right now. That's right. They can't do it. It's all too much. But as they increase capacity and bandwidth, they are gonna be able to handle it.
[00:09:19] Not only handle it, but they will continue to grow their business because they have their drive back, they have their energy back, and they can handle more.
[00:09:26] Melissa: What I saw a lot in the, in the corporate space was this drive to, instead of implementing things where, yeah, like, let's. Create a yoga center in the, or like a little yoga space within the office, or give them gym memberships. Pay time off. What I've seen a lot throughout the program as well is women will come back from time off, right.
[00:09:48] Whether it's a sabbatical or a vacation. And. You know, people have left exhausted. They've felt like they've kind of increased their capacity again, increased their [00:10:00] bandwidth, returned to the same environment, and almost instantly, once they're exposed to these triggers, to these environments, the people, the emails, the stress, the family, all of the things that you've spoken about, why is it that time off doesn't actually fix the burnout?
[00:10:17] What is, what is really going on there?
[00:10:20] Vesna: because taking, having a rest or taking a break doesn't repair the key systems in the body that are required for energy production. So it's, it is really good to have a rest. It really is good to kind of get out of that environment and reset, but there has to be an internal reset, like there has to be habits and changes that you make on a.
[00:10:40] On a, on a daily level, on a nutrition level that are required to repair the systems that break down due to chronic stress and low bandwidth. And the nervous system hasn't been regulated, the systems haven't been repaired. You don't identify, you know, how you are being triggered at work.
[00:10:57] You don't have habits set up that will [00:11:00] help to restore the nervous system. So there's. It's not as simple as just, I'll have a break and I'll come back and feel better. Uh, there really has to be internal work that's done.
[00:11:10] Melissa: It's like a bandaid fix.
[00:11:12] Vesna: Yep. And it's a good, I mean, it's a good thing, like obviously I always am going to support having a break, but it's just, yeah, when you're burnt out, it's not gonna be enough. You are gonna come back feeling the same and which is why, you know, they, they do a lot of research and they show that the beginning of the year after the.
[00:11:26] The Christmas period, business owners come back to work and everyone comes back to work and they feel burnt out by the end of January. Like, it's crazy, right? You've just had some time off, and that is because of that, right? Those internal systems have not been upgraded have not been restored, and so you're coming in a little bit better, but you're still too low.
[00:11:44] Melissa: Mm-hmm. So you feel that what's missing in these corporate wellness programs really is that capacity and that space to turn off that internal alarm system that we have?
[00:11:58] Vesna: Yeah, like I think a lot of the trainings [00:12:00] are great. Obviously resilience training and mindfulness apps. But you know, the first thing that we look at is self-care. Like, let's take care of the, the body. Let's look at, well, how do we, how can we regulate the nervous system through food? You know, it's kind of a way to, you know, I say to biohack the nervous system because foods, foods change.
[00:12:19] Our biochemistry, which can influence. The response of the nervous system. You know, I talk about carbohydrates a lot in my work and I get so much pushback from it online, but carbohydrates is so important because they help to switch off that overactive nervous system or that fight or flight response.
[00:12:35] Really important, but obviously right dose at the right time and the right type of carbohydrates. I'm not saying go out and eat bar of chocolate, right? That it's gonna do the opposite thing, but the right type of carbohydrates are there. From our hunter gatherer days in order to help us reduce our stress response.
[00:12:53] Right. They're very calming and which is why we crave them while we're, when we're stressed. Right. So looking at nutrition, so [00:13:00] nutrients like B vitamins and magnesium, which we get through food and also through supplementation. Are nutrients that are essential for the nervous system to be relaxed. So when something happens at work, instead of you going, oh my gosh, this is a catastrophe, like in your mind, that nutrition keeps your nervous system relaxed and when something happens, you're.
[00:13:23] Okay. That's, that's not good. Let's work this out, right. Rather than going to, oh my gosh. You know, the overreaction, right? So nutrition plays a really key part. Sleep. I mean, let's be honest, without it, like there's just so much that happens in our body during sleep, and people know this. Like, maybe they dunno what happens in the body.
[00:13:44] Like, you know, we process our emotions. So all the stuff from the day before, it's like our brain does, if you ever remember on the computers they used to do this dfr, they, they'd clean. It's cleaned itself, right? That's what our brain does at night. It actually just wipes the slate clear. When we have enough sleep, [00:14:00] enough deep sleep, which means going to bed at the right time and having good night's sleep that. clears the slate. And so we wake up in the morning and we feel refreshed. We have more bandwidth and capacity, right? But if you're not getting enough sleep and you're gonna bed late and you interrupted sleep, then you don't have that slate being cleared, which means you wake up and you're already full in the head, right?
[00:14:20] You feel, ah, another day and you wake up tired because actually your body didn't restore, didn't detox, didn't replenish, and so therefore you wake up tired, right? So sleep is really important. People know sleep is important, right? I'm not the first one to, to be talking about this, but there's a lot of resistance to it, right?
[00:14:39] And we've seen this in the programs. People are like, oh, I don't like to go to, I like to have my alone time at nighttime on the couch with a glass of wine watching Netflix after I put the kids to bed. That's, that's not time that you are actually replenishing yourself. You may like to numb out like that, but that's not restorative.
[00:14:58] You know, and, and so [00:15:00] until you can overcome that resistance and be like, yeah, I don't like to go to bed early, but actually that's the thing that my body needs right now. Until you overcome that resistance and actually start putting it into practice, rather than just knowing it, but actually doing it, that's when you start to feel the benefits.
[00:15:14] And then, you know, we look at other things like balancing blood glucose levels, you know, repairing gut function and liver detox pathways. All of these break down due to chronic stress, dysregulated nervous system, uh, due to, you know, poor habits. But all of that chronic stress creates that fatigue. Those low moods, the anxiety, the overwhelm, the depression, the metabolic issues, the belly fat, the brain fog, the poor sleep.
[00:15:39] You know, this goes on. And so it's really, as each symptom arrives, it's the body saying, I need, I need to rejuvenate. I need to replenish here. I need to restore, like I need to stop slow down. I need to nourish my body. But if we keep pushing through that, we just push ourselves more into deficiency and burnout.
[00:15:59] Melissa: If you could [00:16:00] change one thing about the corporate approach to burnout, what would that be?
[00:16:04] Vesna: looking at that internal capacity and that bandwidth helping people to understand bandwidth to, to begin with, because you don't have to be burnt out to have low bandwidth. You can have days where there's low bandwidth and it's when you don't understand that, that you start to. You know, you start to put a lot of pressure on yourself. You feel frustrated. Why can't I do this today? I've got so much to do. Everything's so urgent, and you feel so stressed, like, that's low bandwidth, right? That's not your environment. That's low bandwidth. So if they could at least recognize that, because that.
[00:16:34] Then they know, okay, I don't have the bandwidth right now. I just need to either pause or do something different in order until I regain my bandwidth. Not always possible in a work environment, but I would even dare to say five minutes or I. Even just recognizing that you take the pressure off yourself, you understand what's going on, you don't keep putting more pressure on yourself, reducing and shrinking your bandwidth.
[00:16:59] And so [00:17:00] the other part is that mental side. I think that's what I would love for people to see is that, that overthinking, that mental noise, the catastrophizing, the going to the worst case scenario, talking about all the problems constantly like that mental noise. Is the biggest culprit of reducing bandwidth and capacity and tripping up the nervous system, activating the fight or flight response, changing your hormones, and then having all of those side effects from that.
[00:17:29] then, you know, often people say to me, well, how do I stop doing that? Well, the first thing is to recognize that you
[00:17:35] are. Right, because so often it becomes so habitual. We think we're actually making some progress by worrying about things, and all we are doing is shrinking our bandwidth, making everything harder.
[00:17:50] So actually seeing that play out for you is really important that that's, you know, what I would want people to see, because that would make the biggest difference.
[00:17:58] Melissa: Anyone listening to this episode, how [00:18:00] would you summarize what burnout in a corporate environment looks like and what is the best steps forward to reduce that amount of burnout in that space?
[00:18:09] Vesna: Yeah, so burnout is not a workload issue, it's not an environment issue. So yeah, you can have a tough working condition or a tough working environment, but people still thrive under that, right? it's coming down to you internally and not to kind of. Point the finger of blame because I've been burnt out twice, so I get this very well.
[00:18:29] But it's to really kind of show you where your power exists in a sense of you have every ability to turn this around. You don't have to quit your job, you don't have to leave, you don't have to run away from your life. But it's really understanding that as you do the things that increase capacity and bandwidth. You are gonna find your environment a hell of a lot easier to work in and probably way more enjoyable. And because of that, have really great results in your work, right? The more you enjoy something, the better results you have is just [00:19:00] just fact, right? And so the things that I would focus on is, well, what you could, what could you do now to start taking care of yourself? what about diet? What about sleep? What about, you know, waking up, having a nutritious breakfast rather than starting the day with a coffee? and what could you recognize about your day to day habitual thinking that if it wasn't for that thinking, how would your experience of work be?
[00:19:25] Like if you took that thinking away, how would you experience your current environment? I think that would be interesting for you to kind of play around with and see.
[00:19:32] Melissa: Thank you so much. Fastness has been really informative and I hope that everybody's able to take a little something away from what, what we've just learned.
[00:19:39] Vesna: Amazing. And thank you for Melissa for joining us today on the first podcast episode, you'll be seeing Melissa more often. She'll be joining me because this is kind of nicer to have a conversation than just, uh, me talking to the camera. Well, it is for me anyway,
[00:19:52] so thank you, Melissa. We'll see you guys on the next episode.
[00:19:55] Said.
[00:19:55] Melissa: so much.
[00:19:56]
